I watched with interest on Sunday morning, the "Sunday" program and their feature story on "John Kerry's War" in Vietnam. His time as CO of a patrol boat going up and down the delta's there and shooting/blowing up everything in sight to "give a warning to the VC" ... didn't matter that they were VC or not. The rapport he had with his troops, how they came under fire and nearly had their boat blown out from under them when they beached it once to go after some VC, etc.

Then his return to the States and his fight and demonstrations representing Veterans Against War. How they finally made it into Congress to tell their part of the story of what they saw and had experienced ... veterans telling of their experiences ... killing two young boys on a dyke, one was still kicking and going over to shoot him again to make sure he was dead. A young girl being raped 67 times ... Being told by their commanders that if they saw a Vietnamese running away, they were probably a VC and to shoot them. If they stood still and didn't move, shoot them anyway because they were probably a "well disciplined VC". Very sad stuff to hear.

I was in tears by now ... I certainly do feel for these boys who had to go and fight a war that was unwinnable, unwanted and just plain dirty. And those of you in Australia who had to go if your "number came up" like a damn lottery!!! Going through the war and being treated in the same way as your American counterparts.

It was a very emotional and interesting story. I was in awe when John Kerry finally made his speech to Congress as to why to stop and pull out of the war now. He was 27 years of age then and made a wonderful speech. The fact that those members of Congress (some of them), hung their heads and couldn't look him in the eye ... said it all. He made them realise what was going on and how they were then treated on their return. Nobody wanting a part of them; being scorned and ignored by those who sent them in the first place.

What got me was that Nixon said he "didn't want to be the first President to lose a war". At what cost Mr Nixon? At what cost? You have a lot of innocent blood on your hands ... both your own countrymen's and those of the Vietnamese.

Not sure how many were killed from the States, but some 580,000 were injured. However, 3 million Vietnamese died ... half of them civilians. They were the largest casualties. It wasn't about the "Red Threat", it was about the Vietnamese wanting their independence from the French and then the Americans. Seems that the Americans at the time didn't see that; they thought they were helping them to fight the threat from the Reds.

What a sad and futile war ...

My opinions only.

Bobcat

I was in the same Boat Squadron that Kerry was in only 18 months later.
I can't say here what I say as most of what we did is still classified and being retired I can talk about most of it.
Six months after I was there we had a fire fight out side the wire and we shot at figures and muzzle flashes. The next morning 8 of the dead women with weapons in their hands were the ones that cleaned our huts along with about 20 of the men that were dead.

The second time I got hit, boat blow up, A$$ still in the air, think I'd learn by now, but am a thick headed GDY. I and the rest of the crew and the team we where supposed to insert had to walk about 5 miles before the medivac helo could pick us up. We had to recross the border, we where on the wrong side and helo couldn't fly over there. GGGGG.
All the charts and maps we had, had no borders on them.
Talk about planning.

Well, I'm back to Sydney for and other 30 days of beer, song, beer, woman, and beer. It's now November. How do I remember, I just looked it up in my file, GGGGG. Things are still a little fuzzy.
Some nice bloke got me to the airplane on time, damn him. GGGGG.

Four months later I'm heading State Side.

_________________
Wayne Johnson
(B149415)
OSC(SW) RET (RADARMAN)
Joined the Navy Jan 6, 1970, retired Jan 31, 1994
USS Trenton LPD-14, Hermitage LSD-34, Shreveport LPD-12, Saipan LHA-2, COMPHRIBRON-4 staff embarked in the Guam LPH 2, Saipan LHA-2, Nashville LPD-13, and Wasp LHD-1

Bobcat, I missed the program unfortunately.

That time in our history was a very defining time for Australia, for we were changing a lot of old traditions from our colonial days.

Australia was pretty much hung out to dry in WW2 by Churchill, who was willing to sacrifice us to protect England, and refused to allow our forces to return for the defence of Australia. Thank heaven some of our pollies gathered enough backbone to defy him, and brought them back regardless.

A lot of the bad taste remained, which was shown in our new alliance with the U.S. We started using Belgian rifles (Belgian FN = SLR), the DDG's and F-111's came from the States, and the Mirages came from the bloody frogs. All of which was a major departure from our traditional sources - the pommies.

Any alliance requires a 'quid pro quo', and I believe such was the case in Vietnam. The original intention was to stop communism's march, and it was achieved. The fact that it was a fight of north V south was a byline.

The moratoriums, and marches against the war were a disgusting opportunity for the labor party to cause enough dissent to gain government. The marches were whipped up by the labor politicians of the day, who marched in the front line, and they were backed by the unions - right behind them. Along came the sheep from various factions, and rentacrowd from the universities.

The politicians - all of them, regardless of creed - hid away from the spotlight, and the only visible targets left were the servicemen. What happened to them/us is now a shameful part of the world's history.

The U.S. lost about 56,000 soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen killed.

Australia lost 504 soldiers, sailors and airmen killed, although that figure seems to change depending which source you get it from.

I think our losses since the war ended would be at least 10 times that total, be it from suicide, cancer, alcohol, or some that have just lost the will to go on.

CJ

_________________

Chris O'Keefe
R43136
Ex WO Chippy
19th MOBI Intake
July 65 to July 85
HMAS Nirimba X 4 -Penguin-Sydney-Queenborough - Creswell - Moreton - Stalwart - Platypus - Coonawarra Reconstruction Team 76 - Platypus - Hobart - Cerberus - FHQ - Coonawarra.

Anyone can be ordinary. Shipwrights choose to be extraordinary!

Yes Chris, I think that period ran the whole gammut of emotions from "defining" to "shameful".

Through ignorance, lack of support/understanding and proper treatment we have had to lose far too many more since they returned.

An ongoing sad saga ...

Bobcat

On one of the better night patrols, the swift boat I was on was cruising off shore around an island that the Army called Gilligans Island. There was a lot of rear echelon types there and was a fun place for R&R as most of the Army was woman.

The VC started a mortar attack and every building took a hit so we came in with the 2 twin 50's blazing. When we found out that the Army had evacuated the island, I called the Wisconsin and got them to give me a broad side of 9, 16 inch high explosive all at the same time. When the smoke, sand and dust cleared, and it was high tide, the island was now underwater.

Them 16 inch where awesome.

_________________
Wayne Johnson
(B149415)
OSC(SW) RET (RADARMAN)
Joined the Navy Jan 6, 1970, retired Jan 31, 1994
USS Trenton LPD-14, Hermitage LSD-34, Shreveport LPD-12, Saipan LHA-2, COMPHRIBRON-4 staff embarked in the Guam LPH 2, Saipan LHA-2, Nashville LPD-13, and Wasp LHD-1

For the truth on what Vietnam was all about there are two books people should read: The Bright Shining Lie and Barbara Tuchman's 'March of Folly:From Troy to Vietnam' which dealt with all of the futile wars from Troy to you know when.

And let's deal with another myth that the leftie do-gooders like to perpetuate:

The law at the time said that no conscript was to be sent overseas unless he or she volunteered to go.

If anyone who was conscripted was forced to go overseas I'd be interested to hear it because as far as the general public (well those of us concerned with the truth anyway) are concerned what I said above was the case.

And before it comes up again: Gough Whitlam did not pull the troops out of Vietnam - he just happened to be prime minister when the last of them came home under a phased withdrawal put in place by the previous coalition government.

_________________
Paul Coleman
Nunc est bibendum
I know you believe you understand what you think I said; but I am not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
- Richard M Nixon

Dead right Paul! I know quite a few blokes who were conscripts/nashos, and each has told me that they were given the option not to go. From their words, none took the 'not going' option. Good blokes, all!

Cheers

CJ

_________________

Chris O'Keefe
R43136
Ex WO Chippy
19th MOBI Intake
July 65 to July 85
HMAS Nirimba X 4 -Penguin-Sydney-Queenborough - Creswell - Moreton - Stalwart - Platypus - Coonawarra Reconstruction Team 76 - Platypus - Hobart - Cerberus - FHQ - Coonawarra.

Anyone can be ordinary. Shipwrights choose to be extraordinary!

Bobcat, I understand your shock and horror. But Kery's story is only one. I have found over the years the guys who don't say much are the ones who did the most.

Remember the USA was supplying Ho Chi Ming his weapons and training during WW2 against the Japanese. As soon as the war finish the VC took on the French and flogged them. Vietnam was always going to be united by a popular vote by South Vietnamese people but the then President of SVN and his cohorts rigged the voting. This allowed a minority of Catholic Educated Vietnamese ruled SVN.

This is only one issue that sparked the Vietnam War. There are so many it would take Hector Crawford Productions at least a 100 years to run a mini series.

The "so called" attack on the USS MADDOX and the Red threat were all pushed by varies governments of every country.

Should we have been involved, I cannot answer that myself, but I have been angered by the sections of Australians that spat and abused the serviceman that did their duty.

Attack the Canberra Pollies there the ones who make the final decision.

Even now with our present deployments come under fire by these radicals.

As I say to people, yes I went to Vietnam and no I didn't see combat, and would I do it again. Yes,than likely.
Why? It's was my duty and my job. Simple and plain.

Remember the Dead and fight like hell for the living.

_________________
Lou Butcher
O/N S105456
Rank DEE LSMTH
23rd Intake JRTE
1968 to 1982

Death with dignity is better than life in humiilation.

IF YOU DON'T LOVE AUSTRALIA. GET THE F#@@
OUT OF HERE.

Total number of US deaths in the Vietnam War is 58,202. This includes 10,824 non hostile deaths. 304,704 are listed as wounded in action with 2,338 missing in action and 766 captured. The numbers for other countries are:
ARVN - 223,748 KIA, 1,169,763 wounded.
South Korea - 4,407 KIA, 17,060 wounded.
Australia- 469 KIA, 2,940 wounded, with 6 MIA
Thailand - 351 KIA, 1,358 wounded.
New Zealand - 55 KIA, 212 wounded
NVA/VC - 1,100,000 KIA, 600,000 wounded and 26,000 captured

Thes numbers could be wrong as they were compiled from reports made in 1981,1993, and 1995.

_________________
Fred Russell

Enlisted USMC 3 March 1972 on delayed entry. Active duty 17 June 1972. Due to a Reduction In Force as the Vietnam War wound down, discharged for a minor medical problem , 23 July 1972.

Good words from "Lou Butcher, Seejay & Deskjockey". I agree. I have a very low respect for people who take there views out on service personnel, when it should be the govenment of the day. Those service people then and now have a duty perform and we did it with pride and expertse.

Being someone who had friends who were drafted back then (they went as well) and family who were also serving. The number of fights I had at school, because someone had said down grading things about service people. Even when I was in the RAAF cadets, young adult people used to spit on us and tell us we were protentual murders. So as you guested it more fights. Come to think about I was fighting civis before I joined and when I was in. All this around the late 60's and early 70's.

Even to this day when people make any bad comment about anything about any service personnel, present or past (unless it was criminal in nature). They get a very angry worded reply from me.

_________________
Ron Preddy (spud),
S114945
Ex POMTP3
July 73, 3rd Muppet, 35th Nirimba
1973 to 1985,
Nirimba, Melbourne, Albatross (MT compound), Kuttabul (FMP), Derwent, Leeuwin (Broken leg/boats W/Shop), Derwent, Torrens and Darwin Naval Base (main machine shop).

That's my Ford FPV Cobra GT